Guest: Pernilla Johansson, Co-founder Centre for Organisational Creativity; former Chief Design Officer, Electrolux Group
Transcript
Filiberto Amati
Hello, my name is Filiberto Amati and I’m a partner in Amazon Associates in Warsaw and we are here today for the second of our episodes on the future of design in design thinking. I welcome Marco Babel. My co author and partner in this research was going to introduce our esteemed guest of today. Thank you, Monica.
Marco Bevolo
Thank you, Filiberto. Today we are very pleased and honored to have Pernilla Johansson from Sweden, who is definitely a design leader. And he’s definitely a design thinker with a very wide and deep experience in Europe, in the Far East, in global companies like Philips and Electrolux, where she has been Chief Design Officer and in various leadership positions before Pernilla. Would you like to just sketch your very very Danks experience in a few sentences highlights for our viewers?
Pernilla Johansson
Yeah, I mean, I normally say 26 years of, of design, leadership cross to multinational companies, across five countries. I started in Europe, and then I took a bounced over to the US where I was part of a joint venture with Philips. And that came to an end one of those really good learnings where businesses are not really managing to find a common culture. And then I took on an assignment in Singapore. And that’s, that became 16 years. And that’s where I transition transition from, from Philips to to Electrolux, and, and build the design department in Singapore for Electrolux. And after six years doing that stabilizing, I was offered to go back to Sweden full 360 journey 23 years later. And then I had the small appliance design department that was global. So we were globally creating products for for all the all the small products that was not having big installations basically. And then three years ago, three and a half years ago, I took on the CDO function in leading the design function for Electrolux. And that ended end of your last year in it shifted into my next role in designing life and designing what I will do with my next third wave of my career. So I’m in a very interesting space at the moment.
Marco Bevolo
Thank you. Thank you very much. And it’s I think, the three of us have experienced the very postmodern professional patterns in terms of the ability to adapt change to different cultural contexts to different organizational cultures and the culture will definitely come back in our exchange in discussion today. But the first question for me is taking a step back, because we are trying to sketch together with Filiberto and together with our contributors are the future of design thinking and design leadership. And they would like to start from the past or better from the definition of what you think is design thinking and design and perhaps also with the motivation as a Scandinavian designer to get into design at the origin of your journey. So what attracted you?
Pernilla Johansson
Yeah, should I start with the beginning or the end?
Marco Bevolo
Well, you you are totally free to choose and, of course, Filiberto might jump in with follow up questions anytime.
Pernilla Johansson
I start with the last part of the question, you know, what got me into design? Aye. Aye. studied mechanical engineering during my, we call it gymnasts yet, which is kind of like high school, I guess in international timeframes. And I fell in love with the blueprint drawings with the ink. And I remember making all these views of mechanical parts. And in parallel to that, deciding on what I would do next, you know, where would life bring me, I was painting a lot at at home. And then friend of mine told me that there was this preliminary artistic education. And I thought, why not take another year, just doing art, before I decide what I will be when I grow up. And so I did that. And then they had a course called design. And that was the first time I heard about it. And I discovered that there was this fabulous school in my hometown called const Industries at that time hDK, the High School for Design and craft in at the University of Gothenburg. And it was really few classes, very few students and hard to get in. And I said, You know what, it’s not going to happen. And then I had a friend who said, you know, you have to apply. And they bugged me so much that i In the end said, Okay, I will apply, just to prove to you that I’m not going to get in. And then I did, and I went through, you know, the first selection of from 700 applicants 250. And then we had to go to school to work for four days and doing samples. And it was the toughest week that I had experienced, but I loved it. And then I got the positive result that I actually did get it. And so I’m for great, forever grateful for that friend, who challenged me and actually made me take that path, because I never looked back. And so that’s the kind of like the background of how I fell into it. And that was industrial design. I mean, today, and when we talk design, I think it’s become so complex that we actually need to talk in more clarifying terms sometimes. And I think that leads us well to you know, what is design and when what is design thinking, because I think the beauty of things is that they are constantly evolving, they mean different things in different time spans and different contexts. And the definition is, is important. design as a word is one that has become extremely confusing. My favorite sentence is designers designs well designed design. And there is nothing grammatically wrong in putting the word design in any of those parts of the sentence. So in a way, what design is, I guess it’s more of a reflection on what the person using the word means, right? And that’s why I try sometimes to be quite sparse in the way I use it, I try to fill with other words, so that I’m not diluting its actual meaning. What I do like is that by design, is not disputed by design is intentional change. Something is always changing. And something is always intentional. That’s what kind of like sets design apart. So to me, that’s, that’s how I like to frame design as a as a
as a definition, so to say, and then when it comes to when it’s applied in a strategic way. So we really go in deep and we apply strategic processes and methodologies. I would say that it is synonymous with innovation. And it’s another confusing definition in what is innovation and what is design. And then if design is defined more tactically, it is more about differentiation. It’s about differentiating itself from something else, saying that I believe that actually, design has over the last decades had such an enormous power of value, like a business value, and it is the outcome of design, the noun of design that is then being referred to. But as designers, we know that if we’re going to have that fabulous output We know that we need a really great process, we need to go through that methodology to make sure that we are getting it right in the end. So for us designers, we speak more about the how, well maybe our business partners speak more about the what. And then we have a language conundrum, which is sometimes doing making a talk cross, I would say, but in in essence, I believe that design is very much of a cognitive skill that everyone can learn. And it does take a lot of practice to become an elite player. You know, you have you have the, you know, you have the ability to create whoever you are right and, and it’s like singing or sports, everyone can sing and one can play football, but everyone cannot do it professionally. So
Marco Bevolo
well, not not everyone easy, but I am of each to precisely, I think your definition of design is quite close to some remarkable authors I have here like Tony Frey, okay, is designers politics. And I have here Victor panic, which is a historical reference and I have here but I cannot find Vida and flutes. So it’s a very encompassing definition of design. But I would like to involve Filiberto from a specific cultural angle, because you have worked in Singapore, in the states in the Netherlands, in Sweden, in Scandinavia. But actually, you came to this profession through serendipity. If your friend that didn’t annoy you, in a sort of tension, you would have chosen a different path and I’m sure you have would have been equally successful. Or with Filiberto, we spoke about serendipity in the context of the future of events, and we spoke a lot about it. And you also now working think about the design of of cultures, I would like Filiberto, to introduce it to shoot a question about the relationship between design culture and serendipity, from the points of view we exchanged several times also as a fellow Italians,
Filiberto Amati
yeah, so. And I would say that, linking back to what Bonilla just said, you know, you the designer, not bad design, in this case. The you spoke about design as the process of creation, another designer, and I look at it from a business point of view. And I think that one of the biggest probably, there are two trends that in business have really helped transformation. One is the path of open innovation, which is to do with the innovators in accelerators, because companies have realized that if they tried to do those business internally, they would have killed them in a stage gate approach, probably. So they put them, you know, far enough from the core, but at arm’s length, to be able then to transform themselves through that. But the true part of transformation in many large corporation in the past 10 years, it’s been by elevating the design function, and the designers within the organization in terms of stretching the boundaries, in terms of bringing creativity, promoting design thinking as such. So how do you as a designer, before we talk about serendipity, how do you as a designer, see your role within the organization and design leader, of course, within the organization in terms of reshaping the organization from inside and changing and making sure that the organization is fixed in terms of sustainability, in terms of human centric and now ecosystem centric, in terms of friendliness, in terms of culture, and so on and so forth?
Pernilla Johansson
Yeah, I mean, I think it’s all depends on where what company it is, what the company context is, and where they stand on the maturity of this A and where their ambition is and what the gap is, right. So all those things matters. I think in general, most large companies have realized that they You need to work in what I would almost call an ambidextrous organizational setup. So you have both the need to perform in working with the current business and making that better and better. And very often there is a natural machinery of incremental innovation going on there. And at the same time, you need to also experiment and expand in new business opportunities between the product category gaps, with new business models, etc, etc. And you need to, on the other hand, do a business oriented assessment of what these opportunities are the size of them from like analytical and business oriented thinking. And then in parallel to that constantly work with the design oriented thinking, of experimenting and exploring and, and seeing where these experiences, ideas and innovation are taking us. So very often, I think, if you think about innovation is bringing into the new is sort of like what is the new, but design is bringing into being. And the two are almost like cog wheels that has to work together. So how do you if that if that’s the framing, and that’s the ambition, it’s, it’s kind of like a multi dimensional aspect, then you do need to have people focusing on the different parts. I mean, I think you have to have people focus on your core business. And you have to have people focusing on being in that new and driving that. And eventually, when it’s matured, it will go into the core business. And then you need to have, especially in the explorative part where innovation is happening, you will need to work with design thinking and design thinking methodologies. And I mean, we never got to the point of really defining design thinking but but I would say design thinking is the inclusive part of design. It is where we can collaborate. And if you put design thinking in the middle of making that your collaboration system, you can all unite around what your goal is in terms of addressing that human, or that system, or that life experience that you are aiming to achieve. So I think you have to work on on all levels. As a design leader, you have to work on building your own business acumen, as well as your peers and the company’s design acumen. I think there’s such a beautiful way of learning from one another and bringing the different sciences together in something that is more wholesome. And then you have to empower the teams and really making those work autonomously and finding the strength in the outside in perspective, and the decision making and therefore be able to be faster. So I believe, you know, in that, in the past organizations had this managerial command based, right, but we don’t have time for that anymore. So the leaders role is very much about empowering those teams and making sure that they are sort of seeing the connection that’s needed to be doing a really, really good job. And then of course in on an individual level, that they are grown and that they are nurtured and that they are supported, and that they are growing up in a culture and a climate, which is inclusive for creativity, and where they can actually learn. And I believe that when you’re in that environment, you will actually blur the lines between designers and we will have much more cross fertilization of people. And I think that will make the world a better place. Well,
Marco Bevolo
thank you. Yeah, thank you, I think again, the work of Tony Frey and these adoption of Heidegger and the fact that design is about designer is very much resonating in your
Pernilla Johansson
unique waiting list.
Marco Bevolo
Have you really I believe you will have more productive and entertaining opportunities during my reading list. I will
Filiberto Amati
if I may, he doesn’t do this type of interviews next to a bookshelf you know randomly it’s because he needs to take books every once in a
Marco Bevolo
while to to be reminded. Now the I wanted to introduce the dimension or the the angle of the future you mentioned you come from industrial design. I myself studied in in electronics, design and engineering at high school so I have a parallel past, as you have. I started working in automotive design, but in the project management of prototypes, and only after several months I was working and, you know, we had a kind of garage Atelier with a very competent craftsman working with metal sheets and with car parts to assemble prototypes. And after several months, a design director came into into the garage. And he looked at a prototype and they looked very artisty. And then he said, no, this doesn’t go, this doesn’t work. And then the head of prototypes asked him why because it’s not beautiful. And I was really astonished because it was a kind of surprise in the automotive manufacturing culture and prototyping concerns for engineering standards. And so to hear somebody saying, it’s not beautiful. So I think that’s where we come from. We are already very far away from where we started 30 years ago. But the question is where we are going and on the basis of which drivers I actually I deeply believe in the power of cosmogony is philosophies, ideologies to shape the future. There is the power on which Filiberto is much more knowledgeable of digitalization, technological advancement. roadmapping, based on scientific discovery, so, where do you see the driver for the next evolution of design to be found? Where would you look for, for such a principle organizing the future?
Pernilla Johansson
I see a couple of driver drivers. The most obvious one is of course, technology. And I know that you guys have been talking about artificial intelligence in other in other sessions, I like to speak about it as augmented intelligence. I don’t like artificial intelligence, I like augmented intelligence, because I do believe that this technology, this advanced technology, this intelligent technology, has the potential to augment themselves and make us humans better. And I think, to deep dive into that one a little bit, I, I think it has potentially, the potential to actually live today’s most important questions of how we do things, to why we do things, because suddenly the house is not going to be so difficult anymore. And I mean, if we’re going to live in a more sustainable world, we have to really be very, very cautious of what we’re putting out there. And the whole value chain and the entire lifecycle. And it’s complex, it’s, it’s, it’s beyond what we have been able to do before. So if we can actually use technology in getting us that data, and spend our time on the really defining on what we should be putting out there rather than, you know, the how we should put it out there and, and guarantee a higher level of success rate. I think that that would be a very good thing and very optimistic thing. I think another thing, which is extremely important, as another dimension to this is the neuroscience learning that’s happening now. I mean, we’re getting into the brain and the way the brain function and the way humans are functioning to a level where we can probably start more effectively designed for behavioral change. And because if we’re going to go towards a more sustainable world, that is one of the things that we have to learn as well, right? We have to also learn to adopt and change and drive positively forward. Right. So the neuroscience is super important component in behavioral design and the shaping of the future that we want. And then I think there’s a third one, I have four by the way, I think the third one is mindfulness. I think empathy is not good enough anymore. Empathy is a journey, you realizing empathy, you cannot just say that you have empathy because it actually doesn’t mean anything. And, and I believe that mindfulness can potentially give us the power to unbiasedly really look at something and maybe bring us closer to the state of compassion and actually bring Seeing more meaningfulness to what we are doing. And then there’s the fourth dimension, which I call expansion of design, I kind of like trying to walk away from this whole democratic session of it, because I feel that democratization is almost talking about losing value, right? It is, it is about an expansion of design. And I think there is a, I mean, there’s signs already now that, you know, there’s not a business person that literally goes through school without knowing and learning about design, and designers who learns about, you know, other sciences as well. And sometimes we better not eve as well, because we actually, we only live in our own world, and we reading about the latest and greatest within design. And then we borrow from all kinds of other areas. And then we think it’s design. And then other industries are doing exactly the same. And when we if we would step out ourselves and actually empathize with our marketing colleagues and our, you know, business colleagues, we would learn that they are also expanding in a similar way. So if we can actually start bringing our different angles together in something that is a little bit more holistic and life centric, I think we have a beautiful future to look at in design.
Marco Bevolo
Well, thank you for also the kind of systematic analysis of the possibilities in the in the opportunities. Were I wanted exactly I wanted to to, to have a Filiberto coming with his point of view, because
Filiberto Amati
would you describe, and I agree with Mark, it’s very well structured, it’s, it’s almost a convergence phenomenon, where basically trends which are independent, are coming together, and they are shaping a new form of design a new emergent discipline of design, which is, you know, on one stronger, on one end, more strategic, which is leveraging technology, but it’s truly based on mindfulness and empathy. But for that to happen, don’t you think? We still lack a lingua franca, a common share the because when multidisciplinary come together, there must be a way for them to communicate, for them to understand each other without spending, you know, by the way, that’s why I did business school, I have an MBA and I have a DBA any business who now you’re learning about design, for you know, an the minimum you need to take out of design in design school, it’s to be able to talk to a designer. It’s not. Exactly that’s not only that teaching you it’s like these guys are not, you know, financial model, or marketers per se, they understand marketing, but you learn design thinking to understand and by the way, learn about ambiguity, complexity, volatility for Is that so? Aren’t we missing a lingua franca to be able to shape the future you envision? And where do we find it? If so?
Pernilla Johansson
Yeah, I mean, I think I think maybe saying that we will have a new discipline of design is maybe it’s maybe limiting, because I believe that design is already having so many different disciplines. I mean, in my over the last years, I’ve I created a job architecture, where we introduced 24 disciplines of design. And
Filiberto Amati
you’re not completely mean a new domain of design?
Pernilla Johansson
Exactly. I mean, it’s a higher, it’s a higher, it’s a higher level. Right. So So from from that point of view, I think you’re absolutely right, we have to, we have to get our understanding, both within design and beyond design. It’s very clear that language is sometimes a hinder in not only between designers and non designers, but also within design we we see a huge gap that has been created based on the say the more historically traditional muscle of industrial design and then new digital world, and with companies growing up with hiring designers that only knows the digital sphere, and there are new methodologies being used in that area, which is not that this, there’s no realization that these tools are actually also used in, in industrial design. And we start using the same words for different things, and we confuse one another. So, I mean, I agree, I mean, the first thing that needs to happen is that the digital and the physical world will come together, and that we will have a better understanding of the different components, we have to empathize a little bit about the the different disciplines that actually exist. And I think the only way to do that is by putting the, the system of humans and society in the center. Because if we if we do that, then we can, we can unite around the challenge that we have ahead. I think we’ve been through over the last decade, especially an expansion of the design disciplines, which has been made us divided in thinking about applications. So you know, you’re not anymore a designer, human centric, driven, but you are a designer of mobile applications, for example. So I think that there’s a lot of work to be done there in terms of driving it together and creating more of a of a common thread. But on the other hand, as it’s so exponential, and it’s expanding, it will be harder and harder to hold it together. So what I think is more important is that within an industry or within a company, that you there have the language that unites you, and that actually helps you drive the common the common goal.
Filiberto Amati
Thank you. And by the way, just as a side note, that’s exactly the same problem marketers have with digital marketing. Now, we basically do digital marketing, it’s becoming this hybrid, sales, thread marketing. And very often it generates awareness. It’s a rapid way to generate awareness, but it doesn’t build any brand. It doesn’t mean bring any emotions to the table, you know? And then it gets more difficult, it’s easier to brand awareness, it’s more cost effective, but then what is the real, you know, brand building effort, so,
Pernilla Johansson
no, but that’s very true. That’s very true.
Marco Bevolo
Yeah, thank you actually, and I would also like to have Filiberto jumping with a follow up question to these you describe language as a potential obstacle, but one of the things that I happen to do in life is to study linguistics and language is always based on a kind of formal level described level and then on the application and all the little tweaks that make language alive and beyond the language that is culture or around language, there is a culture with an understanding of gestures or rituals and that creates the the environment where the language does its job to in connecting people and enabling communication. You are really focusing on the cultural dimension of organizations and in a way the cultural valorization of what design thinking is and what design is, you mentioned before democratization is a potential potential risk to go I tend to agree with you because I see the democratization of designers the the, their responsibility isation of the designer, since the designer is only a facilitator, and then the direction where the word is going is anyway and anywhere. So how do you see yourself bringing your design vision and your experience into the cultural domain to design organizations differently if I express it correctly?
Pernilla Johansson
Yeah, I think I think code Sure is, is something to be extremely aware of, and, and something to understand. And then you need to break it down. Because you can’t tackle culture as a whole. So you have to deconstruct, as designers, we like this deconstructing right, you have to deconstruct the different elements of culture, and then start working on those things that that can influence it. And so what we’re looking at is, is focusing on creativity, because we believe that creativity is that cognitive muscle, that an organization needs cross different functions and disciplines, when they’re working together on these hard questions, and, and then it is about understanding what is the type of leadership that is needed to drive creativity. And, I mean, there we are very much in line with, with, with think, creative leadership in thinking about it as both a combination of, of transformational, and servant and authentic leadership traits. So that you’re really working on on pushing things forward, enabling and empowering teams and setting the right conditions. And then at the same time, you should look at your climate, you know, what is the climate in the organization? What is it on individual level, you know, we know psychological safety and these aspects, which is extremely important for people to be their true best self.
tricky questions, and here, it’s so incredibly important to have in it, we call it intelligent debate and creative tension. And I believe that I am so fortunate as a designer, growing up, being schooled with some fantastic peers in the industry that has, you know, we were, we were always debating and arguing and, and building on each other. And, and that’s when you’re getting good stuff done, but But you have to have a certain safety net and serve a certain environment for that to take place. And then, of course, it matters, what the office feels like. And, you know, all offices nowadays, you know, this should look like living rooms, but in fact, you need some knife at the table, you know, where you can carve out things where you don’t have to worry about spilled paint on the on the floor? I like, David, I think it was David Kelly was talking about that in one of the podcasts lately, you know, what is that creatively infusing environment that might not be like your parents living room? Right? That was what he said that that time. But then, of course, also the, the non tangible, what sits in the what sits in the wall of an organization? What are the heroes stories, you know, who survives and who doesn’t? And, and that says a lot about the organization and the expectations on the organization. So yeah, multifaceted in that sense. And then thirdly, I would say, I said, No, actually, five things. So thirdly, it is also about the systemization of an organization, you know, what we talked about, you know, what is the strategy? Is it multifaceted? Do you need then multifaceted construction of the organization to be able to embed and work with both innovation and design and design thinking to really drive the output, effectively forward? And then, you know, lastly, do the people have the capability that requires to be creative? It is, again, it’s a skill that can be taught, do you have the training, that you can actually be more aware of what you need to think at a particular time in a process? What is appropriate here and what is appropriate there? Because all our brain is made for all parts of what’s needed in the innovation process. But certain part of our thinking is better used in some parts than others, and how can we actually train the way we think at a given time so that we are better in moving that value chain forward for for the company we’re working for? Yeah, I mean, yeah.
Filiberto Amati
Yeah, it’s clear it’s, it’s a great approach. And Ally because she goes back to the empathy side to the mindfulness to the structure to the grid. TVT to what is the domain of design, but in practical terms with the future of work, and you, as a leader of Electrolux have experienced that, where organizations are becoming, adopting an hybrid model of working remotely the offices is the office in the future, whatever. But the reality of work is becoming more phygital. Okay, so what, what are the two, three key elements that a design leader will need to take into account to make sure you can keep building the culture in the same because the framework is fine, but in tangible terms, going back to the serendipity, you know, there are those coffee table conversations in the office, they are so important from a culture point of view from getting a feeling of the organization, or for the boss to realize, you know, this guy is struggling, is really struggling is not happy, or he’s old, he’s actually womb, it’s a volcanic, it’s great, maybe he’s got too much energy, we should use that energy for him in the development of something else. There isn’t a lot of intangibles and a lot of serendipity once again, in that, so how do you work with the changing condition? Within precision of work, to this more qualitative part,
Marco Bevolo
the blurring? I think you mentioned it before Pernilla, the blurring of boundaries, which is yeah,
Pernilla Johansson
actually, I think, I think we are I mean, we’ve, we would have really new to this, first of all, right? We haven’t, we haven’t worked remotely, most of us for more than two years now. Right. So we haven’t yet build up a lot of practice around it. And of course, we always compare the physical with the digital and see the mess to kind of like separate parts. And, and then we talk about what we miss from that physical and making those connections. And I believe somewhere that the hybrid will become, I mean, I like the word digital, did the physical, physical or whatever we have, we want to turn the words, right, it will become one. And I believe that it’s almost, that if you think back, I mean, I have teenage kids, they don’t see, you know, the digital world as a different world. I mean, when we as adults that grew up with, you know, physical play with our friends, if we didn’t play with our friends, we were alone, right. And now our kids are growing up being together with their friends on a digital platform. And they don’t put them it’s seamless. So, I believe that there will be a way of of making the two come together, but I think leaders will have to be much more I would say inquisitive and curious, they have to spend time in asking the teams, the necessary questions, which is deeper than just you know, did you manage to deliver this and this you know, and give time for coffee table discussions, even on a digital format. And then of course, utilizing any opportunity to be together and build teams. So, but there is something so powerful that has come out with our learning of working remote is that we are more inclusive, we we are we are able to work beyond time zones and physical distance, we are able to as individual be much more whole in the way we live and work. And there are so many benefits from it that I think you know, in the long run, the disadvantages will just be forgotten because the advantages are so much more powerful. And, and but then we have to learn to get the nuances through meetings, digital meetings, getting to know people and I find it kind of strange because I I had met people digitally over the last years and when I finally met them physical maybe I’m different but I am She didn’t realize that I met them physically for the first time. For me, it was not such a big boundary. Of course, maybe it was more shocking to them that I was six feet tall. And you know, they hadn’t seen the proportions of me. So maybe that was that was the funny part of it. But in general, I felt that it was possible to connect with people and, and making sure that you had enough quality time. But it takes effort.
Filiberto Amati
I think it takes effort, and I agree with you, it’s also takes skills, because the managers and leaders need to become less transactional, and more parenting mentoring, you know, more working more on the person itself, then on the business to be able to deliver the business, by the way.
Pernilla Johansson
No, absolutely. And I think this is this is where kind of like, where the organizational structures are going towards. I mean, if you look at the trends of organizational design, I mean, you know, people will choose work where they can be more autonomous and, you know, get value out of who they are, rather than, you know, fitting a fixed job description. We do know that that managers or leaders doesn’t necessarily have all the skills that it takes to be able to achieve a transformational task. And then you need to bring people from all different areas together to do that. So you need to kind of like lowering the lowering the empowerment and the decision, right and, and more as an organization be guiding on what what is needed and set the parameters of focus areas, because then people can be much faster in those swim lanes, so to say, so
Marco Bevolo
lowering the empowering, you mean, bringing the power to a lower lower? Law where organizational functions, let’s call Yeah,
Pernilla Johansson
well, shortening the distance in that sense, right? I mean, it’s, it’s the silo organization, you know, someone asks a question, it needs to go up all the way. And then it needs to go down when instead of them being able to solve it, you know, where they are. And I mean, sometimes if there’s really tricky and people are stuck, you know, I mean, escalation still needs to be a path to a resolution. But in principle, if you are focused on a goal, and you have an outside in perspective, and a view, which is research based and, you know, data informed, why shouldn’t the decision be able to take be taken there by that team. So you know, it is about formulating a stronger level of authority and autonomous in the working team that drives it, and, and not any more on managers that have like the say, because they are informed as much as the team by what’s going on with our customers and with our brands and with our markets. So then, then you can create much more of a networked organization that actually can achieve those goals. But you have to be very clear on the direction, you have to be very clear on, on what you want to achieve as company. I mean, it’s, yeah,
Marco Bevolo
well, if
Filiberto Amati
we do not comment on that, which is why purpose for organization is becoming so important, because you need a different type of glue for the organization, especially when the conditions are so volatile, and the purpose becomes the beacon. So people know where they need to, you know, go without being reminded by the boss of the boss of the boss all the time.
Pernilla Johansson
But I will say that both purpose and mission are important because the purpose is really it’s really framing on your being and why you are in business. And it can be very, you know, inspiring and very, let’s say broad in terms of its setting yourself up in a certain context. But you need to combine that with a vision because a vision really gives you a direction, like okay, we have this purpose. So we know why we are in business. And now we have a vision which will guide As towards what we want to become in the future. So if we have both those two components, I think we are in a really good stage.
Filiberto Amati
Thank you, Marco. Well,
Marco Bevolo
I would like to conclude with a bit of a different question. Because if I listen to your vision of designing organizations and injecting creativity into cultures and steering differently, I think that it’s, it’s the underlying theme is a big switch, a big shift from command and control to mentoring and nurturing. And in these sayings, without getting into gender theory, or a feminist theory, necessarily, but I see a shifter towards a female future. In the reason Italian expression that goes like, the future is brighter the future is female. Well, I think, from a gender perspective, you are definitely a very successful business leader. But what do you think is the interplay between the sort of tension are divided between different models, social models, intellectual models, where female values come into play, as drivers for new leadership or for the leadership of the future? And how can design contribute to, to preferable futures in this in this,
Pernilla Johansson
I mean, I am a big fan of now I’m gonna refer to a book. I’m a big fan of here, top status cultures and organizations that has quite a few years on its neck. And I’d love to see a new version of that, unfortunately, he has, he has passed, right. But he’s working on many dimensions, and one of them is femininity and masculinity. And I read this one many, many years back. And it resonated with me, because I do think that masculinity and femininity is something that we all have, regardless if we are men or women. And there are many other dimensions as well, which of course needs to be taken in consideration. Growing up as a as a leader, during the 90s. And, you know, 2000, I didn’t have a lot of female role models around me. I did, though, found a lot of male role models that had feminine traits in their leadership. And I started kind of like figuring out my own path, based on that kind of like realizing what it would mean for me, but pioneering a little bit in, in this in this field in this area. And that’s why I’m so adamant nowadays also to support young females in their journey, because I believe that the, the opportunities for women today is completely different from how it was when when I grew up, or even those women before me grow up, right. And there is something very beautiful in the exponential curve, that that we as designers believe in a lot, right? It’s, it’s nothing ever aesthetic, everything can always be improved, then there I think designers can contribute with an optimistic mindset, which is more than anything. And because we are not designing for ourselves, we are designing for others and we need to go through this deep empathy, you know, realizing empathy into a stage of compassion. It is about building these muscles and listening for actions and support and guidance. And and I believe that that is in the nature of what we do, actually. And that will help us regardless of what gender we have.
Marco Bevolo
Yeah, thank you so much. Filiberto, do you have some final remarks to share with? No,
Filiberto Amati
I have nothing but big thanks to Pernilla for the time and for the chat. I think this is a lot of interesting leads and wisdom to the past, in the present and for the future. And you know, I can just Hope we can be all more empathic in that sense. And may men be in touch with our feminine side to be able to build better, more inclusive organizations because more inclusive organizations are more powerful, more just and better performing. So, by all means, for purposes,
Unknown Speaker
I have to I have to add one here, because everyone talks about diversity today and the importance of that, and we are nowhere with diversity if we not build inclusivity into that equation.
Marco Bevolo
Well, diversity is very, is very easy, when it does not challenges the structures of power. So you know, you can be you can welcome a diverse army if you stay the general and you make all decisions. But that’s not diversity. That’s just a way to reiterate the same structures and I think change will come. Your daughters will bring a change at structural levels, like all the new generations, and for sure, they will be very much inspired by your work and your journey. Well, thank you very much Pernilla, for sharing your thoughts about the future of design and design thinking and ultimately, about the future of the rest of us. Thank you Filiberto, also for CO hosting with me like always, and we will surely be connected in stay connected in the future. Thank you.
Filiberto Amati
Thank you. Bye, Neela. Thank you. Thank you for having me.